Dealing with Differences in Desire, Part 4: The Road Ahead
This is the replay of Day 4 of the Dealing with Differences in Desire challenge — a workshop for Catholic husbands.
Over 300 men registered for this four-day experience, and Day 4 was different from the rest. After receiving vulnerable, honest feedback from the brothers in the workshop, I threw out my prepared script and dedicated the session to addressing the real themes that came up throughout the week.
Here are some themes that we cover:
Sex as communication — not just something you do, but something you say. Why marital intimacy is the ultimate body language.
Addressing the hard questions that came up during the challenge: Why does so much weight fall on the husband? What about NFP and the physical toll of childbirth? What do you do when you feel like business partners instead of lovers?
A personal story from my own marriage — how the Lord handed me a mirror and showed me that I'm a lot more difficult to live with than I thought. (The humility is real.)
We also covered insights from the Gottman Institute, the Love Languages (and how physical touch relates to sex) and more.
I ended with an invitation to continue the journey inside Holy Desires, my 8-week formation for Catholic husbands.
If this episode resonates with you, I'd encourage you to do two things:
1. Tell your wife one thing you learned this week that shifted how you see your marriage. Then ask her what she thinks.
2. If you feel called to go deeper, learn more about Holy Desires at canafeast.com/holydesires.
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Transcript
Hey there.
Speaker A:Over the past four days, I've hosted a live workshop for Catholic husbands on dealing with differences in desire in the bedroom.
Speaker A:And those replays I've been posting right here on my podcast.
Speaker A:Over 300 men registered.
Speaker A:Here is the replay of day four.
Speaker A:But before we get into it, a bit of background on this one.
Speaker A:I had prepared a script for this session, but after some vulnerable, real and raw feedback from the brothers in the workshop, I threw out my script instead.
Speaker A:I dedicated the session to addressing the themes that had come up in that feedback.
Speaker A:So this one is a lot more interactive and a lot more conversational, so full transparency.
Speaker A:I edited this replay heavily first to remove anyone else's voice to respect their privacy, and then also a lot of edits to make it easier to listen to in podcast form.
Speaker A:So you may notice a few rough transitions here and there.
Speaker A:That said, I hope you enjoy this honest discussion of real issues that Catholic husbands carry.
Speaker A:All right, so like I said in my emails before with.
Speaker A:With a link, and before we get started, I kind of chucked my.
Speaker A:My prepared presentation out the window for today.
Speaker A:There were quite a bit of comments and feedback from yesterday and the day before, as well as in the community itself that I just mentioned.
Speaker A:The community comments I saw, but a lot of the feedback from yesterday, I admit that I did not actually see comments were coming as I was speaking it.
Speaker A:You know, I try to keep an eye on the chat, but it's kind of rolling.
Speaker A:I'm speaking and so I missed it.
Speaker A:I totally missed it.
Speaker A:There's a lot of stuff that was.
Speaker A:Was brought up in those comments.
Speaker A:It came up a little bit in the Q and A and the discussion afterwards, but it's really important and I wanted to give it the space that it deserves today.
Speaker A:So I have a few comments and a few, you know, a few things that I've.
Speaker A:I've pulled together to talk about a lot of the things that.
Speaker A:That came up, and that's.
Speaker A:That's basically the agenda for today.
Speaker A:I've identified, you know, a number of themes from those comments and feedback.
Speaker A:We're going to go through those, and then there'll be hopefully a lot more time for a general discussion as well as we get to the end.
Speaker A:But as.
Speaker A:As we do, before we get started with anything beyond that, let's start with prayer.
Speaker A:The name of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:Lord, I thank you for this, this opportunity to come together as men, as Catholic husbands who love our wives, who strive to follow you and be good disciples to have the space and this time to discuss and learn and grow together how to become better husbands, better lovers to our wives, how to cultivate intimacy in our marriage and sexual intimacy in our marriage in a way that is fulfilling to us, to our wives, and pleasing to you.
Speaker A:We ask for your Holy Spirit to be with us, guide us, guide our conversation and our words, and help us to know in our hearts what we each individually need to hear.
Speaker A:And we pray that your spirit will act on us and through us and in us today and all the days of our lives to bring us ultimately into your heavenly kingdom at the end of our lives with our wives and children and all whom we love and all whom you wish to save.
Speaker A:All of these things.
Speaker A:We pray through the intercessions of our Holy Mother, Mary, Mother of God and Prince.
Speaker A:Sorry, Mary, Queen of Angels.
Speaker A:Pray for us.
Speaker A:For the intercession of St. Michael the Archangel, Prince of Angels.
Speaker A:Pray for us.
Speaker A:And the intercession of St. Joseph, terror of demons.
Speaker A:Pray for us.
Speaker A:The name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:Main.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The overall, main sort of framework or point that I wanted to drive home tonight is, is this sex is communication.
Speaker A:We often think of sex as something that we do, something that we do with our wives.
Speaker A:And it's true, it is an activity to some extent, but that's not the deepest way to understand it.
Speaker A:The deepest way or a deeper way to understand sex and, and marital physical intimacy is as an act of communication.
Speaker A:So it's not so much something that I do with my wife, it's something that I say, it's a conversation that I have with her.
Speaker A:And when, you know, Sarah and I often use this analogy, not really an analogy, this illustration with engaged couples when we're talking to them about the meaning of sex in marriage for when they get married.
Speaker A:And it relates to communication.
Speaker A:We all know how important communication is in marriage and in relationships, right?
Speaker A:So this idea of body language, that's true, like we have the theology of the body, there is a body language, but communication experts talk about body language all the time.
Speaker A:And it's real, it's true.
Speaker A:What we do with our body is, really does communicate things.
Speaker A:And experts tell us, you know, some, some very large percentage of meaning is communicated through non verbal body language and cues.
Speaker A:So super simple example, right?
Speaker A:If, if you come home and you find your wife with her hands and like her head in her hands kind of like this, and you say, oh sweetheart, how are you doing?
Speaker A:And she says I'm fine, right?
Speaker A:She says, I'M fine.
Speaker A:Her words say I'm fine.
Speaker A:Her body says I am definitely not fine.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Which do you believe?
Speaker A:You believe the body language?
Speaker A:The body language is generally, you know, more immediate, more visceral.
Speaker A:And any smart husband knows that that wife whose head is, you know, in her hands, even though she says she's fine, she is clearly not fine.
Speaker A:It's the body language, and that's.
Speaker A:That's very immediate and intuitive.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So sex is like the ultimate body language.
Speaker A:It says something to our wives and with our wives and saying something back to us.
Speaker A:What is it that we're saying?
Speaker A:We're saying.
Speaker A:We're basically saying our vows to each other, right?
Speaker A:What did we vow?
Speaker A:I promise to love you.
Speaker A:I promise to cherish you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer.
Speaker A:I give myself to you no matter what, no matter what the circumstances are.
Speaker A:I choose you above any other woman, above all other women.
Speaker A:You are mine and I am yours.
Speaker A:And we're in this together.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That's our relationship.
Speaker A:And that is the language that.
Speaker A:That sex has.
Speaker A:And there's even more.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Sex also communicates because it is procreative.
Speaker A:This is how babies come into the world.
Speaker A:So at a certain level, it says, I love you so much that I think that the world will be a better place if there's more of you in it.
Speaker A:I want more of you.
Speaker A:I want more of your goodness, your beauty, your everything that I love about you.
Speaker A:The world deserves more of that in the world.
Speaker A:So let's have a baby and let's invite God to create this new person, and we can be part of that creation, creative process.
Speaker A:Then I want more of you in the world because that's one of the best things that I think the world could benefit from.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:World will be a better place if there's more of you in it.
Speaker A:That's a pretty great message.
Speaker A:So that was a lot of what I was going to talk about is sex as body language, as communication.
Speaker A:Communication.
Speaker A:I like to say this.
Speaker A:If you break down the etymology of the word, which is sometimes a fun thing to do, it's not always really great philosophy or academics, but it is very fun.
Speaker A:If you break down the etymology of communication.
Speaker A:You see, it's from Latin.
Speaker A:You've got uni, that's one.
Speaker A:Co means together, that ication ending.
Speaker A:That's like a process, right?
Speaker A:So it's the process, Right.
Speaker A:If you break it all down, it's basically like etymologically the process of becoming one.
Speaker A:That's what Communication is when we speak with each other.
Speaker A:It's a way of sharing ourselves with the other person.
Speaker A:It's a way of sharing myself with my wife and it's her way of sharing herself with me so that we can what, become more unified.
Speaker A:Unity, communication.
Speaker A:So it's a way to become one with each other.
Speaker A:Well, the ultimate way to become one.
Speaker A:The two become one.
Speaker A:Flesh is insects, right?
Speaker A:So it's like the ultimate communication, the ultimate process of becoming one.
Speaker A:So that's a kind of off the cuff way of describing a lot of what I was going to talk about.
Speaker A:And I think that that can actually help us with discussing some of the themes that came up yesterday and in the community.
Speaker A:So let me just kind of recap some of the themes that I saw come up and then I'll kind of go from there.
Speaker A:And by the way, because I'm cutting more or less off script, I do have a couple of notes just to keep me.
Speaker A:One big theme that came up.
Speaker A:So there was a lot of expressed frustrations and pain and challenge and there were a number of themes that came up that I do want to address.
Speaker A:One big theme.
Speaker A:I'm quoting, I'm not going to name the names, but I'm quoting from various comments and posts.
Speaker A:Why is there so much weight on the husband to figure this out?
Speaker A:Or I'm basically, you know, I'm doing everything right and still get shot down or shut down.
Speaker A:Another noted a little reciprocity would be nice or just simply why is this so hard?
Speaker A:So yeah, there's, there's a big theme there about the, the difficulty, the challenge, the perceived perception that this is, you know, maybe one sided.
Speaker A:So that's one.
Speaker A:I'm not going to address these right now.
Speaker A:I'm just going to name them.
Speaker A:Another big theme that came out was tension with nfp.
Speaker A:The tension that NFP creates and the physical toll of childbirth which was brought up this morning or at the beginning of the call.
Speaker A:One comment that many husbands related to was the hard part is using NFP and having to miss her period of higher desire.
Speaker A:That is definitely a challenge.
Speaker A:There is another comment.
Speaker A:There's a big impact on women's bodies during and after childbirth.
Speaker A:This call does not address those issues.
Speaker A:Fair enough.
Speaker A:That is not something that I had in my plan to address, but we can talk about that a little bit.
Speaker A:Another theme that came up was being generally disconnected in marriage on a more general sense.
Speaker A:One brother shared.
Speaker A:We're almost like business partners and we just kind of coexist.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Overall, both in the community and in discussions, there are several posts or comments along the lines of I'm just at a loss or what's the answer?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like I'm, I'm at a loss, not sure where to go, what to do.
Speaker A:And I want to talk about all of these things with a lot of reverence and understanding and empathy.
Speaker A:And so I do want to start off with a story from my own life and then kind of circle back around.
Speaker A:We're going to get to the love languages too.
Speaker A:That was another comment in the, in the post.
Speaker A:Here's the story and that's a true story.
Speaker A:So throughout our marriage, Sarah has had quite a journey with a lot of challenges and a lot of mental health challenges.
Speaker A:And she's very upfront about this publicly, which is why I don't mind talking about it with you as well.
Speaker A:Things like her parents divorce, she's had issues with depression and anxiety postpartum, talking about, you know, post childbirth issues, postpartum anxiety.
Speaker A:She's had a lot of different journeys with mental health practitioners, has had tremendous blessing through those individuals.
Speaker A:All of this is to say that for large chunks of our marriage, to greater or lesser extents, I have basically found myself in a sort of almost a caregiving, that's the word, caregiving rule.
Speaker A:Now, obviously she's not like debilitated, she's not.
Speaker A:Nothing was that extreme.
Speaker A:And she was quite functional and an amazing woman in every way.
Speaker A:But there was a, there's a lot of that dynamic where I was supportive.
Speaker A:Maybe supporting rule is a better way to say that she was really suffering and struggling through various things.
Speaker A:They were not short term things.
Speaker A:They took months or years to work through and, and I was really supporting her in a lot of ways through that, through all of those things.
Speaker A:So I basically thought that I was pretty easy to live with.
Speaker A:I thought that of the two of us, I was the more even keeled, I was the more emotionally stable or steady, didn't get as riled or upset or, you know, didn't have a lot of swings.
Speaker A:I thought that I was doing pretty well.
Speaker A:And if I'm honest, I thought she was pretty lucky to be with me.
Speaker A:The humility is coming, don't worry.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I recently have been very much disabused of this idea and it didn't come in a super dramatic way.
Speaker A:It came, praise God, like, it came largely through the fact that Sarah, through all of these journeys, finds herself in a much, much, much better space.
Speaker A:Now, again, praise God.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And let me just, you know what, I brought all of these Things to prayer.
Speaker A:And I was looking through my journal, and the spirit led me to this page.
Speaker A:I'm going to read, literally a couple of lines from this page.
Speaker A:This was from a couple months ago, so not long ago.
Speaker A:I wrote at the top, what is wrong with me?
Speaker A:With question mark, exclamation point.
Speaker A:What is wrong with me?
Speaker A:I used to think I'm quoting my own journal.
Speaker A:I used to think that I had to.
Speaker A:That, sorry, I have bad handwriting.
Speaker A:I used to think that I had to put up with more than she did in our relationship, but I don't think so anymore.
Speaker A:I used to think that I had to put up with more than she did in our marriage, but I don't think so anymore.
Speaker A:I have come to the realization that I am certainly not as great as I used to think.
Speaker A:I have been confronted with a lot of my own flaws that.
Speaker A:I don't know, they slipped under the radar.
Speaker A:I just wasn't very aware of them.
Speaker A:Turns out I'm a lot more difficult to live with than I would like to think.
Speaker A:I have a lot more moods than I realized.
Speaker A:Turns out I can be pretty grumpy.
Speaker A:Turns out I can be pretty short and pretty upset.
Speaker A:Turns out I have a pretty wide range of emotions that people need to deal with in my family.
Speaker A:I specifically remember one evening when I thought everything was fine.
Speaker A:I was just going around doing my thing in the kitchen, and I noticed that Sarah was, like, kind of tiptoeing around me and being really, really gentle with me and, like, really differential.
Speaker A:And I looked at her and he's like, is everything okay?
Speaker A:And she's like, are you okay?
Speaker A:I said, I'm fine.
Speaker A:She said, are you really?
Speaker A:Because you've been really pretty.
Speaker A:Pretty short with the kids.
Speaker A:Are you doing all right?
Speaker A:Do you want to go upstairs and take some time?
Speaker A:And all of a sudden, it hit me like I actually was.
Speaker A:I was being really.
Speaker A:I had a really short fuse, a short temper.
Speaker A:All of this is to say that the Lord handed me a pretty big mirror for me to look at myself in over these last several months.
Speaker A:And he, in his mercy, allowed me to see myself much more closely to how he sees me.
Speaker A:And how he sees me is in love, absolutely unconditional.
Speaker A:But he also sees all the ways that I fall short.
Speaker A:He knows I'm not perfect.
Speaker A:Goodness gracious.
Speaker A:But the gap that I have between myself and where I would like to be and the ideal that I have for myself and how I want to show up for my family and how I want to love Sarah and how I Want to be a father.
Speaker A:That ideal, that vision, that's a lot bigger than I realized.
Speaker A:I thought I was a lot further along on the journey than I actually am.
Speaker A:So, wow, what a lot of humility that gave me.
Speaker A:So I share that in humility, very gently, to suggest that this move, this, like, looking in the mirror, is something that we can all do when we are confronted with these differences and desires, when we're confronted with anything in our marriage.
Speaker A:I want to read this is a testimonial that I received from someone who went through Holy Desires, my Holy Desires course.
Speaker A:I think it was in the spring.
Speaker A:It was last year.
Speaker A:Either in the spring or the fall.
Speaker A:Don't remember.
Speaker A:Obviously, I won't share the name, but it speaks right to this.
Speaker A:And he said this about Holy Desires.
Speaker A:I appreciated learning about sex from the Catholic perspective.
Speaker A:Can't imagine hearing these truths anywhere else.
Speaker A:Not for magazines or the locker room.
Speaker A:Really appreciate it.
Speaker A:There's such a need for these truths, Nathan.
Speaker A:Thank you for presenting them.
Speaker A:Here's the part I so wish I had this knowledge years ago.
Speaker A:I now realize how selfish I've been in our marriage.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, he got that mirror.
Speaker A:He, like, zapped him right in the heart.
Speaker A:Another.
Speaker A:Another man told me something similar.
Speaker A:I appreciate the fact that this is just.
Speaker A:That just being part of this journey from the Holy Desires course not only pushed me, but has given me examples and tools again to initiate discussions with the right heart, the right attitude.
Speaker A:So I said this yesterday, but I really want to say it again with as much reverence and humility as I possibly can.
Speaker A:The only thing that we truly can control is our own selves.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, we have control over our own hearts, over our own self.
Speaker A:We can control what we do and how we approach things.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:That's a process.
Speaker A:We need to, you know, work on it.
Speaker A:But when we are confronted with these challenges and with these things, like, let's take, you know, why is there so much weight on the husband to figure this out?
Speaker A:I'm doing everything right and still get shot down.
Speaker A:A little reciprocity would be nice.
Speaker A:Why is this so hard?
Speaker A:Those are all very real and valid feelings and issues.
Speaker A:But one of the first things that we can do is take that mirror and say, am I really doing everything right?
Speaker A:Like, is there nothing that I can do to do anything better?
Speaker A:And the answer to that is obviously no, but.
Speaker A:But we need to not be comfortable or complacent with.
Speaker A:Well, I could, like, change some things around the edges.
Speaker A:I just found out in the last year of my own Spiritual journey.
Speaker A:There's a lot more than polishing the edges that I need to do in my own life.
Speaker A:And I think if we're all honest, that's probably true for the vast majority of us.
Speaker A:Why is this unfair?
Speaker A:I want to kick this question up to a far more spiritual dimension.
Speaker A:Why is it fair that Jesus would suffer and die for us and we just get to follow him and receive the grace of salvation?
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:It's not fair.
Speaker A:If we wanted fair, if we really truly wanted justice, we would get the worst end of it, I promise you.
Speaker A:We don't want justice.
Speaker A:We want mercy.
Speaker A:And that's what Jesus offers us.
Speaker A:Thank God.
Speaker A:It's, you know, life isn't fair.
Speaker A:And maybe in this area of your life, there really is more burden on you as the husband than on the wife.
Speaker A:Or it really is.
Speaker A:Objectively speaking, and this is absolutely honest, objectively speaking, it really could be the case that there's, you know, a lot more burden on you as a husband.
Speaker A:Maybe it is the case that there that it's really lopsided in this area of life.
Speaker A:I suspect that if you look in other areas, it will also be lopsided, but in your favor.
Speaker A:In your favor.
Speaker A:I really dislike thinking about relationships in terms of like who's winning or losing or, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker A:Should all be on the same team pulling together with our wives.
Speaker A:But, you know, to use that language, let's take, you know, nfp.
Speaker A:It is really, really hard to miss our wives, you know, time of highest desire.
Speaker A:It's probably really hard for her too.
Speaker A:Like she's the one that's got to deal with the hormones going up and down, with the changes in desire flip flopping objectively, men are a lot more steady.
Speaker A:And even in terms of sexual hormones and desire and all of that, men are far more stable in that regard than women.
Speaker A:Because obviously women have these cycles that are built into their bodies by our creator to enable fertility.
Speaker A:And that's how they're designed, speaking from observation as a man.
Speaker A:And that's all that we can do here because we don't experience that firsthand.
Speaker A:But there's some challenges that come with that that I've noticed in my own marriage.
Speaker A:And that's not fair.
Speaker A:It's really challenging after childbirth.
Speaker A:That's absolutely true.
Speaker A:She's the one that's got to carry the child and give birth.
Speaker A:If we take these themes and really look at them through the lens of in all humility, what can I do?
Speaker A:Have I truly fulfilled the ideal or the vision of myself as a loving, self giving, other centered husband who serves and leads my wife, my family.
Speaker A:You know, there's always ways that we can improve in that.
Speaker A:That last theme, like general disconnection in marriage, this is, this strikes so close to the heart of what Sarah and I do, as in our ministry towards to couples.
Speaker A:We do see couples who are later in life.
Speaker A:They've been married for several decades.
Speaker A:Maybe they're empty nesters.
Speaker A:Maybe the kids are out of the house and they kind of look at each other.
Speaker A:Maybe retirement has come around and they're like, who are you?
Speaker A:Do I have a life being with you anymore?
Speaker A:And that can be really difficult.
Speaker A:Like the one individual said, we're almost like business partners and kind of coexist.
Speaker A:That says it well.
Speaker A:And sadly, that's.
Speaker A:That's not an uncommon problem.
Speaker A:The best time to fix it is 30 years ago.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That's cold comfort, someone in that position.
Speaker A:But it's also hope for those who are, you know, newly married or aren't that far along in their marriage.
Speaker A:It really takes effort and prioritization of your marriage at all times, you know, all throughout, in order to maintain that connection so that at the end of life you can enjoy the best line, right?
Speaker A:Like the wedding at Cana, the host saves the best wine.
Speaker A:Jesus provides the best wine for last.
Speaker A:And a lot of people, myself included, I love to read that as an analogy of, or as a saying, among other things, that marriage can just get better.
Speaker A:It can get better over time, not worse.
Speaker A:There's this cultural trope that, you know, things are great when you're newlyweds and by the time, you know, years have gone by, marriage is just a drag.
Speaker A:But it doesn't have to be that way, and it doesn't have to be that way if we really focus and prioritize, focus on and prioritize our marriage.
Speaker A:And there are very specific skills, not just a desire to do so, but there are real skills to do that.
Speaker A:So we can educate ourselves about those skills.
Speaker A:We can seek those out.
Speaker A:Like, the love languages I mentioned is a great one.
Speaker A:We'll talk about that in just a second.
Speaker A:I mentioned the Gottmans yesterday as researchers who have done just amazing things for understanding just the human level of how human relationships, romantic relationships, marriages, how they work, what's good for them, what's bad for them, what they need to thrive.
Speaker A:I'll give you another.
Speaker A:Another gem from the Gottmans.
Speaker A:One of their themes, one of their sayings, their mottos is small things often.
Speaker A:Small things often.
Speaker A:What they found is that really small loving gestures, other centered gestures done regularly and consistently, that's really, really important for successful marriages.
Speaker A:And in the absence of those, your marriage can really start to atrophy.
Speaker A:So Sarah and I actually love that.
Speaker A:And then we see a lot of that reflected in spiritual wisdom.
Speaker A:For many of the saints, like St. Therese, right.
Speaker A:Her little way, do small things with great love.
Speaker A:It's just beautiful.
Speaker A:Ben Gottman's doing secular.
Speaker A:I'm not like, just because I endorse them doesn't mean everything that they say is in line with Catholic teaching and the great tradition of Catholic intellectual tradition.
Speaker A:We take what is great and good and true and beautiful and we integrate that into our understanding and we use it.
Speaker A:And then what isn't good and true and beautiful we just disregard and discard.
Speaker A:So that's what we do as Catholics.
Speaker A:So it's not this all in one thing.
Speaker A:There's a comment here I want to pause.
Speaker A:It's somewhat lengthy.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It ends with I appreciate thoughts or suggestions.
Speaker A:So hold on, I'm going to read this out loud.
Speaker A:It's in the public chat.
Speaker A:My wife is postmenopausal and sex can be painful for her.
Speaker A:Hence not as willing to engage in sexual activity.
Speaker A:She's tried product which helps to some extent reduce the discomfort.
Speaker A:She doesn't use the product regularly and we have relations once every few months.
Speaker A:I have expressed my desire to have sex more, trying not to put pressure on her.
Speaker A:While I do not wish to be selfish, which sometimes I feel I would like her to do more, to find ways to make it more comfortable for her.
Speaker A:While I'm sensitive to her discomfort and don't mean to be a jerk.
Speaker A:Of course you don't.
Speaker A:But I feel rejected when she doesn't use the product more or look at alternatives.
Speaker A:I try not to put pressure on her.
Speaker A:I sometimes do.
Speaker A:I was hoping she would do what she needs to do for herself.
Speaker A:Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Speaker A:That is very.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's a really fantastic question and thanks for all the context.
Speaker A:That's excellent.
Speaker A:I'm going to come back to communication.
Speaker A:So is there a reason and these are kind of hypothetical, right?
Speaker A:And to this person, feel free to email me directly or start a chat thread in the community and we can go deeper.
Speaker A:I'll.
Speaker A:I'll offer you some thoughts here, but I don't want to get super into one very narrow scenario for everyone.
Speaker A:But my general thoughts definitely.
Speaker A:It sounds like you have communicated with her, but I would specifically ask things like is there a reason that you don't like to use this product?
Speaker A:Does this product have side effects?
Speaker A:Does it make you like, does it make you feel this way or that way?
Speaker A:Is there some reason why this isn't why you would prefer not to use this product or do you prefer not to use this product?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So really kind of dig in and keep asking the why questions.
Speaker A:Of course, with humility and curiosity and empathy.
Speaker A:Also, I would really ask her questions like, are there things that I can do that would make things, make this more comfortable, that would make it better for you?
Speaker A:She may be open to having ideas, she might not have ideas, but you got to at least ask that those types of questions.
Speaker A:I completely appreciate that you would, that you would just love for like her to have this desire and to more or less like, take care of herself.
Speaker A:I guess I don't really want to say it that way, but what I would, what I would recommend is some of those deep conversations and then you can actually do some research on her behalf.
Speaker A:If this particular product doesn't suit her, are there alternatives?
Speaker A:You can do some of that research.
Speaker A:You can do some brainstorming and finding different ways to make things more comfortable for her.
Speaker A:I can give you a, like, I'm not sure what product you're referring to, but things like lubrication and you can try lots of different kinds of lubrication that often is very, very helpful during things.
Speaker A:There are some specific menopause, perimenopause and menopause, you know, programs, resources, books for women.
Speaker A:My wife Sarah has been, she doesn't have one, but she has been involved in several and she has a personal passion for networking with other women on all things nfp, hormone health, that whole zone.
Speaker A:She, she just loves it.
Speaker A:So she knows a lot of resources.
Speaker A:So I can, I can absolutely do a roundup of resources for menopause and get that from her and pass that on to you.
Speaker A:So if that would be helpful as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's all sorts of health supplement kind of approaches to take.
Speaker A:I think the overall uber point and that, you know, that can be a very deep world to dive into with lots of different directions to go in and, but the meta point is absolutely, you know, in the realm of sexual intimacy and sex, it is certainly not disconnected from our overall health.
Speaker A:It is very physical.
Speaker A:It is hormone driven in some ways or at least supplemented by hormones.
Speaker A:And you know, the, your overall holistic health is absolutely a very large piece of that puzzle.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:I just want to, I want to say one last thing about love, languages Because a comment came up in the community about love languages.
Speaker A:So really quickly, I really like the Love Languages by Gary Chapman.
Speaker A:But it is very easy, especially in sort of common parliament, to kind of miss the main point.
Speaker A:A lot of times, you know, people are like, what's your love language?
Speaker A:What's my wife's love language?
Speaker A:What is my love language?
Speaker A:And we're all super interested in, like, what language is it?
Speaker A:Which is fine.
Speaker A:But here's his meta point.
Speaker A:This is what the whole love language framework, this is what it all rests on.
Speaker A:It rests on this key observation that the way.
Speaker A:Two, two observations.
Speaker A:One is that there's different ways to show love, right?
Speaker A:We can show love in lots and lots of different ways.
Speaker A:That's obvious enough.
Speaker A:The second one is obvious when you say it, but it's really easy to ignore it in common experience.
Speaker A:The second one is that not everyone expresses or receives love in the same way.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it's really, really easy for us to think that.
Speaker A:The way that I express love is obviously the way that my wife should receive that love.
Speaker A:Perfect, silly example.
Speaker A:My love language, My top love language is touch.
Speaker A:Like, I suspect many of you can relate to that, which does not mean sex, by the way.
Speaker A:So, you know, I, I just really.
Speaker A:I hug up my kids a lot.
Speaker A:I hug my wife a lot.
Speaker A:Early in our marriage, I would come up behind her.
Speaker A:She's like, maybe scrubbing a pan or something.
Speaker A:I just like, put my hand on her waist.
Speaker A:Sometimes I'll just like, drape my hand across her shoulders by way of saying hi.
Speaker A:I won't use words, right?
Speaker A:Words isn't my love language.
Speaker A:I'll just like, pat her as I go by.
Speaker A:It just means, hey, I'm thinking about you.
Speaker A:Love you.
Speaker A:I see you.
Speaker A:You know, that's.
Speaker A:That's what I do.
Speaker A:So I would come up behind her and I'd like, put my arm.
Speaker A:My hand on her waist a little bit, give her a little squeeze, and she would freeze and she'd look at me, she'd say, what do you want?
Speaker A:Like, I don't want anything.
Speaker A:I'm just saying, hi, what do you want from me?
Speaker A:So my wife's love language is obviously not a physical touch.
Speaker A:It's just kind of an amusing example.
Speaker A:Like, I thought that I was just innocently demonstrating a very small, like, connection point, right?
Speaker A:I'm just connecting with her, literally connecting with her.
Speaker A:I'm putting my hand on her back and just saying, hi, hey, I see you.
Speaker A:And she thought she.
Speaker A:I needed something from her.
Speaker A:Like, what do you want?
Speaker A:That's the point.
Speaker A:Like we all give and we receive love in different ways.
Speaker A:So the whole point of Love languages is let's figure out how our wife receives love most intuitively, most effectively, most directly, and then let's do that.
Speaker A:Let's just put more of that into our relationship.
Speaker A:And it might be mean learning to do things that are rather counterintuitive to us because it doesn't come naturally.
Speaker A:But that's part of love.
Speaker A:It's, it's a way that we can grow and we can stretch.
Speaker A:So that's the whole point of the love languages, right?
Speaker A:So it's very other centered.
Speaker A:Again, other centered.
Speaker A:What can I do to help you, to serve you?
Speaker A:And one last point on Love languages, Chapman is actually pretty clear as well as others, that touch as a love language does not mean sex.
Speaker A:And if you have high desire for sex or high sex drive or high libido, that doesn't necessarily mean that your love language is touch.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:Those two can be actually quite distinct.
Speaker A:So we need to make sure not to conflate touch with high desire or high libido.
Speaker A:Case in point, I am 100% touch love language kind of guy.
Speaker A:But as I shared earlier, I've actually been the lower libido spouse in our marriage that multiple times.
Speaker A:That doesn't mean that I didn't like touch as a love language, but my desire was low, right?
Speaker A:So like the love language and desire for sex, they are distinct.
Speaker A:And just because you do have a high desire doesn't mean necessarily that your love language is tough is touch.
Speaker A:So those shouldn't be conflated.
Speaker A:And Chapman's pretty clear about that in his book.
Speaker A:The other.
Speaker A:The other topic that I was going to mention was simply to announce that the Holy Desires course was going to be open in full transparency.
Speaker A:There's a bunch of like computer backend stuff that I did not finish.
Speaker A:So it's not actually available and open tonight, but I will get that up probably tomorrow.
Speaker A:And I do want to warmly invite all of you on the call, all of you who are watching the recording, to join me inside Holy Desires for an eight week experience where we will go deep into all of these topics and more.
Speaker A:We won't be rushed by, you know, just a short four day, five day, you know, experience.
Speaker A:We'll have two months and a little more to walk with each other and to support each other as a group of men who all just want to learn to love their wives better.
Speaker A:So if that's something that is calling to you, I want to issue that personal invitation.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:I will, I will send an email about that tomorrow when, when the doors actually open.
Speaker A:When they can actually open the doors.
Speaker A:Because like I said, there's.
Speaker A:There's some preparation that's not quite finished yet.
Speaker A:So I do need to finish that.
Speaker A:But that was the other piece of what I had planned for tonight.
Speaker A:But it was more important to spend the time really focusing on what came up throughout this four days.
Speaker A:And I think that what came up was really valuable.
Speaker A:And I am honored to have been a part of walking with you this past week, whether you join Holy Desires or not.
Speaker A:This has been a really moving experience for myself and I really so much appreciate all of you for joining and all of you for participating and for sharing the good, the bad and the ugly.
Speaker A:Because all of it is grace filled.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And it is a truth that we frequently, if not always, grow more through our challenges than during times of great spiritual consolation.
Speaker A:So take heart.
Speaker A:If you are in the midst of particularly challenging times, God is also right there with you and His Spirit is there with you and there can be incredible growth in and through it.
Speaker A:If you feel like the experience of Holy Desire is walking with a group of men alongside you to support, encourage in these, this aspect of your marriage, as well as, you know, some very specific formation and teaching on all these topics and more from me, if that is tugging at your heart, definitely reach out to me and watch for an email from me.
Speaker A:I will send out some more information when I can actually open the course and I'm planning to keep the doors open through next Friday and then the course will actually start the week following.
Speaker A:So I'll have just one quick week after the enrollment stops to prepare and then that cohort will start.
Speaker A:That was the other big topic, but I'm just going to leave it at that so you can watch for more information from me.
Speaker A:All right, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you very much, everybody.
Speaker A:I appreciate you all and praying for you all.
Speaker A:Take care.
Speaker A:God bless.
